Holy Cow this is a long response...
Hey – this one’s an incoherent response to Iulia’s comments, and I think that together we ask a thousand questions~! First, and for the record, I don’t think you’re a stupid Yank.
In fact, I think that you are right - the environment in the UK *is* ambiguous. Partly, (I would argue) the impact of many, many Christians [and others] historically working to change culture through the avenues open to them, including the government and seeing their involvement as politicians as part of their Christian responsibility, then gradually allowing the government to take responsibility… So, free health care, free food, milk, education (until recently Uni was essentially free) were all partly legacies of the history. That means that it is harder to be ‘noticed’ as a Christian, or as ‘distinct;’ the challenge seems much more to be both creative and subversive. And I think you are right: the lines here in the US are much clearer. Poor is poor. Rich, Rich…
I don’t know of anyone who works on the estates who would disagree that injustices are done – and oppression is real, and I think that racism exists in the UK and here. The estate is not monolithic though - and I think that developing friendships with people who live on them – [moving there?] incarnating, as it were, or being incarnational wherever we may be living is also an enormous challenge. Brits are often also more reticent. That means that it is over time that you can have an impact that is often much more immediate in the States. I also agree it is much more easy to envision what you can *DO* (food banks, Spanish classes, english, working with gangs…) and usually because of your nation’s spirit it is generally done on both a much bigger and better scale. I am faced daily with very overt poverty here, and - though I see some at home – it is probably much more behind doors…
On the “what child in our estates around Longsight is going to make it to Uni?” question: quite a few; some of the boys that we started working with six years ago are involved in higher education. This is where is gets messy – only SOME of the people on estates are ‘underclass,’ others have high ambitions, great skills, ability and a yearning to become ‘more’ – but they are also tied into the estate. Brian, Adam, Lee, James, Matthew, Michael, Patrick are ALL in college, and they are only the ones I can think of off the top of my head. I guess I am both agreeing with you, and disagreeing with you. The analysis maybe needs to be more nuanced.
I am not sure that hate crimes are as prevalent. Maybe. I’d want the demographics :-) Or that racism and marginalization *are* hidden –it seems that the question of integration is one that seems to be troubling both of our societies. On the surface integration is allowed/ wanted/ hoped for. In reality it seems lacking – and, one of the things that strikes me in both places is that the Church generally reflects that - predominantly segregated, and middle class. I’ve spent the weekend on the Texas and Oklahoma Latin District. A segregated district for Spanish speakers - they are wonderful, generous, hospitable, marvelous, lively people – and not integrated… The same could be said for other churches I’ve visited in a lot of places. [of course, that begs other questions, right? What about the need to hear your own language? What about the ‘Latin congregation’ in Longsight? What about the missiological questions of homogeneous groups? EEK. Big.can.many.worms.]
It seems though, that where this ambiguity that you mention seems most unambiguous - is at the level of some of the congregations of the church (of the Nazarene). They/we are unambiguously *just the same* as the culture around us: the ‘American dream,’ or the ‘British dream/non-dream[?]’ for that matter - in values, segregation, attitudes prevails even in the church– BUT those with a social conscience seem more inclined to ‘reach out’ – or something… Again it’s not un-nuanced. I think that there are some that are ‘communities of Character’ (to borrow from Hauerwas) and in the UK I hope that is how Longsight is becoming - : but, here’s the question that I’ve been asking for a while – how integrated are we really? It takes time, energy, commitment to be friends – and, as has been a topic of conversation amongst many of us, but that is HARD WORK, people are BUSY and so on. But –what if every white Christian from our church was in and out of our brothers’ and sisters’ houses? What if the neighbours of our brothers and sisters (from wherever) who are being attacked saw true integration, and knew that there was defense, care and a wider community that these brothers and sisters are a part of [and it was Christian?]
Both our cultures are guilty of this: Lip service about peace in the Middle East, but having troops in Iraq and giving loads of money to Israel.
I can’t really answer about ‘upward mobility’ and the UK attitude – I think that there is an age-old suspicion of wealth. I also think that the class system is endemic, and oppression (including through various abuses) prevails. Though, I would want to argue that the way the West has gone under capitalism is not necessarily boding well for the future. We are more selfish than ever. I wonder if the despair that you sense in the UK is in deeper fractures - lack of community, lack of ‘other’, lack of movement, lack of outdoor air. Education, eating, walking, getting out of the slums maybe needs more vision than people have? The possibilities here, in the land of the free, seem endless – a self-made man/woman can go anywhere, and do anything…. And England is older, more tired, and her ancient bones are creaking… She was built by stayers not goers… establishment not pilgrim, there is a different mentality I think … BUT, self-made men and women don’t necessarily seem any more Christian to me, just more pioneering.
Surely then the Christian-journey that is so hard in the UK is at least as important/ if not more imperative, not less: Hope-bringers? Light-offerers? Vision-bearers? Alternative-reality proclaimers? Prophetic in the way you are trying to be? That seems to me a long-haul, difficult message, one at a time, encorporating community initiatives, but motivated as you say, by love. Brutal.
Ah, I think I’d better not get going on the government issue. I think that general malaise is endemic in both our governments, but I don’t think the sacred/secular divide in the UK has served us well – or that the sacred/sacred acquiescence in the US has served any better. But, shouldn’t Christians do all they can the change society? Shouldn’t we realize that the burden that is on US-together is one that demands a wider perspective and engaging? I would want to argue that when I write to the MP I am not saying the problem is HIS – I am saying it is OURS and he is one of the ways I will try and solve it- work towards its resolution: of course, if I write to say that recycling in Manchester is shameful (which it is), and then continue not to recycle I am passing it off – but certainly I don’t know many Christians/people who take that approach… But – that’s one of the issues isn’t it: I am just another person writing to the MP – that’s the very ambiguity you talk about. What makes us distinct?
[On a side note, I do think though that a lot of people think that problems ARE going to be solved through the government in the US – it’s just that the problems you allow the government to respond to are different – problems of security, threat, for example are all over the news here. (And in the UK, I know – I am saying that we expect more from the government, not less)…]
I DO see what you are saying about it being ‘easier’ to live apart here. But – I would say that it makes it easier for ‘socially aware,’ sensitive conscience Christians to live apart. BUT… I also think that the seemingly hegemonic nature of Christianity here makes it seem that many don’t live ‘apart.’ A little ‘Christian voice’, as you say, goes a long way… I agree… but which Christian voice?
But, you’re in the UK. So are we. How do we bring hope? Who are our friends? How do we connect? How do we make a difference? How do we build on the assumptions that are good (health care, education for all, welfare….etc), and be prophetic to the ones that are bad (education limited, waiting lists, abuses of the system…). And so on? How do we allow God to create a dream in people that isn’t ‘the American dream’ - or for that matter ‘the British dream’ - or do we find a dream that is bigger and deeper than both? Maybe there is a greater demand for much more subversive, courageous, friendship that “provokes thought and debate about THE ONE about whom all of this revolves” enabling people to know that “(HE is why all this important to me- it is all integrated because of HIM)…”
MAN I wish I was at the group on a Wednesday or at yours having coffee and we could TALK… WHERE the heck DO we go from here? (Literally… where do we GO to find the ‘third space’ that we can meet, and minister, and care in… ) What about the ‘community’ that you mentioned at the very end? I think that is something that many of us are thinking about: living together, loving together… [Maybe we should start a cafe-bar? Fair-trade, home-made, comfy space to gather... or a 'beauty parlour' or...]
Anyway, just on the marching note: for some, sometimes being involved in ‘campaigns’ mean that you meet people who you can live-as-a-witness to. Maybe gardening would help people eat better? Maybe having people over (as you do, I know) will let you get to know them…
Anyway, this is long! Sorry… I have just come back from San Antonio, and am on my way to bed, but don’t have another chance to post until tomorrow night…
In fact, I think that you are right - the environment in the UK *is* ambiguous. Partly, (I would argue) the impact of many, many Christians [and others] historically working to change culture through the avenues open to them, including the government and seeing their involvement as politicians as part of their Christian responsibility, then gradually allowing the government to take responsibility… So, free health care, free food, milk, education (until recently Uni was essentially free) were all partly legacies of the history. That means that it is harder to be ‘noticed’ as a Christian, or as ‘distinct;’ the challenge seems much more to be both creative and subversive. And I think you are right: the lines here in the US are much clearer. Poor is poor. Rich, Rich…
I don’t know of anyone who works on the estates who would disagree that injustices are done – and oppression is real, and I think that racism exists in the UK and here. The estate is not monolithic though - and I think that developing friendships with people who live on them – [moving there?] incarnating, as it were, or being incarnational wherever we may be living is also an enormous challenge. Brits are often also more reticent. That means that it is over time that you can have an impact that is often much more immediate in the States. I also agree it is much more easy to envision what you can *DO* (food banks, Spanish classes, english, working with gangs…) and usually because of your nation’s spirit it is generally done on both a much bigger and better scale. I am faced daily with very overt poverty here, and - though I see some at home – it is probably much more behind doors…
On the “what child in our estates around Longsight is going to make it to Uni?” question: quite a few; some of the boys that we started working with six years ago are involved in higher education. This is where is gets messy – only SOME of the people on estates are ‘underclass,’ others have high ambitions, great skills, ability and a yearning to become ‘more’ – but they are also tied into the estate. Brian, Adam, Lee, James, Matthew, Michael, Patrick are ALL in college, and they are only the ones I can think of off the top of my head. I guess I am both agreeing with you, and disagreeing with you. The analysis maybe needs to be more nuanced.
I am not sure that hate crimes are as prevalent. Maybe. I’d want the demographics :-) Or that racism and marginalization *are* hidden –it seems that the question of integration is one that seems to be troubling both of our societies. On the surface integration is allowed/ wanted/ hoped for. In reality it seems lacking – and, one of the things that strikes me in both places is that the Church generally reflects that - predominantly segregated, and middle class. I’ve spent the weekend on the Texas and Oklahoma Latin District. A segregated district for Spanish speakers - they are wonderful, generous, hospitable, marvelous, lively people – and not integrated… The same could be said for other churches I’ve visited in a lot of places. [of course, that begs other questions, right? What about the need to hear your own language? What about the ‘Latin congregation’ in Longsight? What about the missiological questions of homogeneous groups? EEK. Big.can.many.worms.]
It seems though, that where this ambiguity that you mention seems most unambiguous - is at the level of some of the congregations of the church (of the Nazarene). They/we are unambiguously *just the same* as the culture around us: the ‘American dream,’ or the ‘British dream/non-dream[?]’ for that matter - in values, segregation, attitudes prevails even in the church– BUT those with a social conscience seem more inclined to ‘reach out’ – or something… Again it’s not un-nuanced. I think that there are some that are ‘communities of Character’ (to borrow from Hauerwas) and in the UK I hope that is how Longsight is becoming - : but, here’s the question that I’ve been asking for a while – how integrated are we really? It takes time, energy, commitment to be friends – and, as has been a topic of conversation amongst many of us, but that is HARD WORK, people are BUSY and so on. But –what if every white Christian from our church was in and out of our brothers’ and sisters’ houses? What if the neighbours of our brothers and sisters (from wherever) who are being attacked saw true integration, and knew that there was defense, care and a wider community that these brothers and sisters are a part of [and it was Christian?]
Both our cultures are guilty of this: Lip service about peace in the Middle East, but having troops in Iraq and giving loads of money to Israel.
I can’t really answer about ‘upward mobility’ and the UK attitude – I think that there is an age-old suspicion of wealth. I also think that the class system is endemic, and oppression (including through various abuses) prevails. Though, I would want to argue that the way the West has gone under capitalism is not necessarily boding well for the future. We are more selfish than ever. I wonder if the despair that you sense in the UK is in deeper fractures - lack of community, lack of ‘other’, lack of movement, lack of outdoor air. Education, eating, walking, getting out of the slums maybe needs more vision than people have? The possibilities here, in the land of the free, seem endless – a self-made man/woman can go anywhere, and do anything…. And England is older, more tired, and her ancient bones are creaking… She was built by stayers not goers… establishment not pilgrim, there is a different mentality I think … BUT, self-made men and women don’t necessarily seem any more Christian to me, just more pioneering.
Surely then the Christian-journey that is so hard in the UK is at least as important/ if not more imperative, not less: Hope-bringers? Light-offerers? Vision-bearers? Alternative-reality proclaimers? Prophetic in the way you are trying to be? That seems to me a long-haul, difficult message, one at a time, encorporating community initiatives, but motivated as you say, by love. Brutal.
Ah, I think I’d better not get going on the government issue. I think that general malaise is endemic in both our governments, but I don’t think the sacred/secular divide in the UK has served us well – or that the sacred/sacred acquiescence in the US has served any better. But, shouldn’t Christians do all they can the change society? Shouldn’t we realize that the burden that is on US-together is one that demands a wider perspective and engaging? I would want to argue that when I write to the MP I am not saying the problem is HIS – I am saying it is OURS and he is one of the ways I will try and solve it- work towards its resolution: of course, if I write to say that recycling in Manchester is shameful (which it is), and then continue not to recycle I am passing it off – but certainly I don’t know many Christians/people who take that approach… But – that’s one of the issues isn’t it: I am just another person writing to the MP – that’s the very ambiguity you talk about. What makes us distinct?
[On a side note, I do think though that a lot of people think that problems ARE going to be solved through the government in the US – it’s just that the problems you allow the government to respond to are different – problems of security, threat, for example are all over the news here. (And in the UK, I know – I am saying that we expect more from the government, not less)…]
I DO see what you are saying about it being ‘easier’ to live apart here. But – I would say that it makes it easier for ‘socially aware,’ sensitive conscience Christians to live apart. BUT… I also think that the seemingly hegemonic nature of Christianity here makes it seem that many don’t live ‘apart.’ A little ‘Christian voice’, as you say, goes a long way… I agree… but which Christian voice?
But, you’re in the UK. So are we. How do we bring hope? Who are our friends? How do we connect? How do we make a difference? How do we build on the assumptions that are good (health care, education for all, welfare….etc), and be prophetic to the ones that are bad (education limited, waiting lists, abuses of the system…). And so on? How do we allow God to create a dream in people that isn’t ‘the American dream’ - or for that matter ‘the British dream’ - or do we find a dream that is bigger and deeper than both? Maybe there is a greater demand for much more subversive, courageous, friendship that “provokes thought and debate about THE ONE about whom all of this revolves” enabling people to know that “(HE is why all this important to me- it is all integrated because of HIM)…”
MAN I wish I was at the group on a Wednesday or at yours having coffee and we could TALK… WHERE the heck DO we go from here? (Literally… where do we GO to find the ‘third space’ that we can meet, and minister, and care in… ) What about the ‘community’ that you mentioned at the very end? I think that is something that many of us are thinking about: living together, loving together… [Maybe we should start a cafe-bar? Fair-trade, home-made, comfy space to gather... or a 'beauty parlour' or...]
Anyway, just on the marching note: for some, sometimes being involved in ‘campaigns’ mean that you meet people who you can live-as-a-witness to. Maybe gardening would help people eat better? Maybe having people over (as you do, I know) will let you get to know them…
Anyway, this is long! Sorry… I have just come back from San Antonio, and am on my way to bed, but don’t have another chance to post until tomorrow night…
posted by erdreid at 02:53
2 Comments:
Sections of this read extremely similarly to Nietzsche.
Style, that is, not content.
Thankfully.
I think it's a good thing.
Great post, Dee.
My penny's worth...
In the broadest strokes:
Poverty in the UK is because of social engineering gone wrong. We tried to fix it; we buggered it up.
Poverty in the US is because of social laissez-faire gone wrong. It's your job to fix it; your problem if you don't.
The mainstream Christianities on offer in both countries reflect the same differences. UK: liberal bleeding heart or social gospel. US: capitalist self-improvement.
The US would obviously be a lot more pleasant a place if there were a genuine social net for the poor. The UK would be a lot better if there were more individual responsibility (and generosity!).
One question, though -- what on earth is Christian about disliking Israel, or thinking that it doesn't deserve our support? Is there another country in the world surrounded by militants who are constitutionally, ideologically, or historically committed to its destruction? Hasn't Christian history done enough damage to Jews already, without implicitly siding with virulent anti-Semitism in the Middle East?
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