For the faint-hearted
The last blog is a mammoth one - really just trying to engage with IH on the questions I've been batting around. Don't feel like you have to read it [unless you're Iulia :-)].
I've had a long but good weekend, staying with some lovely friends in Texas and preaching at their District NYI convention. I had the chance to met up with some lads that I met first in Kankekee [sp?] about 7 years ago - of course, they are all grown up, and lovely, and Christians! It was so good to see them. I ate so much food: TEXAN. For those who are geographically challenged, Texas is HUGE. And, the food is HUGE, and delicioso! At one restaurant there was the possibility of having a 24 ounce steak, AND they sell drinks in 64 oz cups. I can't even describe how big that is!
Sadly, while away had a pretty bad/swift reaction, so for those of you who pray for me, that's one for the kneeler... I am also feeling quite mixed up about the future of Deirdre, so, again, if you are prayers, that's another... Lots going on in my head right now - exacerbated, I'm sure, by being far away from most of the kith and kin.
Umm. Read all the way there and back, and felt like i know about 1/1000 of what I should know at this stage. All quite depressing.
It is funny being away: Anyway, I'm about to get Maudlin, so I won't. I'll save that for another time :-)
I had really interesting conversations with people about the Military and Christian involvement. a lot of the lads I have met in Texas see the military as a natural option. One guy, Ernesto, is joining the marines this week. He is lovely, big hearted, sweet, an EMT, and keen to serve. It's another whole area of tension in my head. Especially because I had lunch with a wonderful young couple, the lady's father was in the Air Force for 20 years, and for the rest of his life [and theirs], he, his wife and their physically challenged youngest daughter have health insurance, pension and care... All made much more poignant since her mother is terminally ill.
Matt Francis, if you read this, what is the orthodox stance re. pacifism? What do other people think: what should Christians do?
Also, reading 'Exiles...' by Michael Frost. v, interesting, provocative and good.
okay. sdg
I've had a long but good weekend, staying with some lovely friends in Texas and preaching at their District NYI convention. I had the chance to met up with some lads that I met first in Kankekee [sp?] about 7 years ago - of course, they are all grown up, and lovely, and Christians! It was so good to see them. I ate so much food: TEXAN. For those who are geographically challenged, Texas is HUGE. And, the food is HUGE, and delicioso! At one restaurant there was the possibility of having a 24 ounce steak, AND they sell drinks in 64 oz cups. I can't even describe how big that is!
Sadly, while away had a pretty bad/swift reaction, so for those of you who pray for me, that's one for the kneeler... I am also feeling quite mixed up about the future of Deirdre, so, again, if you are prayers, that's another... Lots going on in my head right now - exacerbated, I'm sure, by being far away from most of the kith and kin.
Umm. Read all the way there and back, and felt like i know about 1/1000 of what I should know at this stage. All quite depressing.
It is funny being away: Anyway, I'm about to get Maudlin, so I won't. I'll save that for another time :-)
I had really interesting conversations with people about the Military and Christian involvement. a lot of the lads I have met in Texas see the military as a natural option. One guy, Ernesto, is joining the marines this week. He is lovely, big hearted, sweet, an EMT, and keen to serve. It's another whole area of tension in my head. Especially because I had lunch with a wonderful young couple, the lady's father was in the Air Force for 20 years, and for the rest of his life [and theirs], he, his wife and their physically challenged youngest daughter have health insurance, pension and care... All made much more poignant since her mother is terminally ill.
Matt Francis, if you read this, what is the orthodox stance re. pacifism? What do other people think: what should Christians do?
Also, reading 'Exiles...' by Michael Frost. v, interesting, provocative and good.
okay. sdg
posted by erdreid at 02:59
8 Comments:
Dee,
well where do I start re the Armed Forces. I worked alongside a christian for 3 years and I personally could never get my head around as to why he was there in the RAF at all. Steve never really gave me a good answer (certainly not for me who had 16 years further to wait to be a Christian). In the mid 80's I went through a process where God was speaking to me and I didn't even know it! I became more and more uncomfortable in the RAF. I questioned myself a lot, and Sue was being worked on at the same time. I couldn't stay in doing what I was doing without a conscience and I had said bye to too many friends in the mean time. The women peace protesters gave me a major nudge mentally when at RAF Greenham Common and RAF Molesworth.
Having said that, I am sure that people can have a genuine calling to be in the Forces, but maybe not in the act or preparation of killing people ie Chaplain,Nurses and Doctors. If you join the RAF in any other capacity, then you can find yourself holding an SA80 shouting 'Halt' etc. At some stage you might have to go that step further. I couldn't do it now as a Christian, but I could be a Chaplain in the Forces.That would cause me some problems still of the vicarious kind..... The Police became an issue for me as well along the same lines.. but that's another host of topics!
Oh hum, back to research for a Capital Punishment Dissertation for me amongst other things!!
This is completely off the topic - but since you're addressing random questions:
A couple years ago I was in Busingen and attending a seminar on "What is a Nazarene?" There was a proud declaration that John Wesley's ministry prevented a revolution taking place in Britain. This was not the first time I had heard that.
So I have two questions - where does that idea come from (I imagine no one outside Methodism holds to the historical argument)? And secondly, which I think is most important, - Why do we treat it as a good thing? Less then 30 years after Wesley British soldiers would massacre their own unnarmed civilians on St. Peter's Fields Manchester.
I guess, I'm asking because I was doing some research into Manchester's radical history at work. It wasn't suprising to find the C of E defended the establishment after the Peterloo massacre. But in some books Methodists are also specifically mentioned as being unconcerned with Civil rights and defending a backwards and repressive government.
By saying Wesley prevented a revolution are we not celebrating this indifference?
Hi Mark,
First, Helevy was one of the first hagiographers of methodist history, maintaining that the methodists prevented the revolution. They seem to have seen this as a good thing because of the brutality of the F.R. and the general attitudes associated with 'the establishment' and the divine...
Some of the later Methodists were very unconcerned with the radical movement. Most especially the group led by Jabez Bunting - v, patriarichal and authoritarian. Others (the primitive and new connexions) were very involved in the leadership of trade unions etc. and the whole civil rights movement. Radical, and led from below by the egalitarian nature of the class groups...
Does that help?
And, for the record, later scholars mostly completely overlook Wesley and the Methodists as a 'stopper of revolutions...'
Here’s a blast from the past… and mostly comments on a previous post and echoes the comments made.
Somehow came across your blog and am enjoying reading it and reading how more effectively Longsight church is reaching the local community there. We always were a little on the edge with Keith, Derek, John D and I dabbling with real lives in a poorer community (to think Derek and Barry had a group of ‘mormonlike wackos’ attending… don’t think we would have been ‘accepted’ in any other congregation). Having honest open Christian community is not very neat and tidy (like the church leadership and middle class often prefer) and can sometimes be very depressing because results are rarely instantaneous, so your efforts are truly appreciated from afar. Hi to J and JA.
I was spurred to comment on your discussion on the difference between the US and UK on what makes a Christian impact on that community. I have been in St. Louis for almost 8 yrs now (so when I refer to the US I am really only speaking from a Midwestern culture not the east and west cultures) and am originally from the UK. I am a little removed from the reality of the UK but have been back almost every year so I still keep in touch.
I think the UK has a more socially conscious culture because it is has been forced to be aware of the impact on our ‘neighbors’ (EU, BBC, colonialism, Eurorail, the year out between A levels and Uni, etc.). In the USA it is like life is lived in a bubble placed in North America, ‘no’ international news (thank God for NPR and BBC who now have news 6-9am on BBC America), no knowledge of the impact that our purchasing decisions have, no real awareness of the poor in our communities (we drive everywhere and pass through or by those ghettos of poverty – we lock our car doors when we do), we attend doctors offices and hospitals that are built to service our middle class community… I am being very general now but there is a sense of conformity here. People do the same things and eat the same things, and their senses are not really challenged to anything new. So when you do something different – it STANDS out. Even ‘improvement’ is cookie cutter and basically means bigger house/car/social status… conformity.
We live in a two-bed house in a poorer community, where most of (no all) of our friends, who have their Masters like us and have professional jobs, live in 3-5 bed houses. We stand out – not enough though I feel. Helping the marginalized in the USA is often ‘subcontracted’ to the social agencies willing to do it. As D rightly points out segregation (in various forms) is just as prevalent, if not more so, here in the US. We rarely become an integral part of kingdom building here in the USA we subcontract it out.
I fully agree in the US there is more ‘get up and go’ or as Norman Tebbit once put it ‘get on yer bike’ whereas in the UK there is a severe bout of determinism hanging over it. BUT I feel the purpose of improvement in the US leads to no better a solution than the determinism of the UK. Scratch beneath the surface here in the US, it is much of the same that cannot be fixed with a credit card. Ultimately both communities lack authentic peace and hope through a community per D’s comments.
One thing I often see in secular communities/countries (I work with a number of international offices) like the UK is a pervading corporate depression. In Uruguay, the most secular society in Latin America, suicide is one of the things we battle the most. In my opinion in the US we (the middle class) have more disposable income and thus we have staved off corporate depression by spending on short-term pleasurable fixes. But ask anyone that has been hit by a personal tragedy here or ask the marginalized, the result is the same… hopelessness.
The church should be socially conscious (and the Midwest needs a severe dose of environmentalism – me too) but it should be part of the outward actions of a Christian community. Where the Christian should STAND OUT in both countries is by living and showing how Christian community was really supposed to be. Showing there is more to life through ‘authentic community’. That pain and suffering exist and impact both rich and poor but Christian community pours oil in those wounds. We have to make ourselves vulnerable, we have to accept messy lines, and step into no go zones, but maybe this ‘community’ would provide support and hope for someone stuck in determinism. Maybe it would provide impetus for people to work on improving themselves for the benefit of the community not just themselves. In the US maybe ‘authentic community’ would highlight the need to use our additional resources for the long-term benefit of our community not just our personal gratification. Accountability in a community sense not a District panel or church board.
(In some ways I think it’s harder to share the Christian message here since there are so many ‘Christians’ and a lot of people are doing ‘very well thank you’ from a materialistic perspective).
Here’s the rub though, ‘authentic community’ is one of the most difficult things to ‘do’. Also what does it mean in real terms to achieve this ‘alternate reality’. Recycling, buying fair trade items, living frugally… are very important – especially here in St. Louis, but are just manifestations of an authentic Christian community emanating from a core. Making ourselves vulnerable to honest Christian community, challenging life in the bubble, or stating there is hope in the middle of perceived hopelessness (and with an American accent), is very challenging BUT if truly done will make us STAND out. This is tough in both countries.
I have been EXTREMELY disappointed with the church (Nazarene) here in St. Louis. Essentially it is very legalistic and rarely gets to having a Jesus impact on society. We need more effort put into understanding what is an authentic Christian community and how we work towards that. As D says “WHERE the heck DO we go from here?”
Governments – I agree with D that it is much the same except I think in the UK the interaction between government and ‘the people’ is much more intimate than in the USA.
OK short comment became long… sorry… it was on my chest…
Mark and Deidre,
Halevy was a French historian interested in what he saw as the stability of English society as compared to French society. He was the first historian to propose the thesis that Methodism prevented a revolution (he made this claim in the 1910s). Halevy made it clear in several of his writings that he was not a Christian. In the second half of the twentieth century, Halevy’s thesis was popularized in England by the Marxist historian E.P. Thompson (The Making of the English Working Class). As far as I am aware, very few Methodists have ever accepted Halevy’s thesis, although many historians have acknowledged the fear of a French style revolution amongst early evangelicals. From my perspective, Methodism was far too complex of a phenomenon to be boxed into such a neat a tidy theory. Not to mention that it is questionable whether a group which represented about 60,000 people could have prevented a revolution. It is very interesting indeed that the presenter so happily embraced the Halevy thesis. [Mark, let me know if you’d like any sources on this debate].
-Geordan
Geordan, Deirdre.
Thanks for your replies. Sorry for asking such a random question - its been at the bank of my mind for a while.
Deirdre, I think my question was based on some very specific books I had been reading which perhaps had a biased vision in regards to anything related to the church.
Geordan - thanks for those details. Your reply answers a lot. I'm sure we can talk next time we meet.
A thought, put into absolutes (because of course I work better that way: I'm only a first-year, after all!)
If the world were divided in two between a primarily Christian state and actively non-Christian (that is, say, a dictatorship executing all religious people wherever they were found, for example), and overtures of war were made by the latter to the former - would self-defense be morally justified, from a Christian point of view? More than just personal or state safety, but the continuation of the Church and possibly understanding of God at risk of destruction?
Obviously there are more questions than just pacifism wrapped up there - ideas of God's plan for humanity, etc., but filtering down to, for example, WW2 - would it have been morally right for the Allies to all disarm, stand down and let the Nazis invade and take over the world?
So, yeah. Pacifism. Interesting thought.
Robert, you make me laugh! You are always so polemical - so. Was the only option war? I'm not a hardened pacifist, but what about the before-hand? What if some of the people & Christians in advance had decided to resist? I don't think that pacifism=doing nothing. I would hold out non-violence as very Christ-like. What if all Lutheran Christian churches (in Germany) had said "no" to the brain-washing? It is always hard to argue from silence - we'll never know. But... what if? What if every Christian refused to 'serve' in the military? Anyway, many things to think about.
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